tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post1288981882091301836..comments2023-09-25T05:50:59.427-05:00Comments on My Dirty Little Secret: Daddy, Does God Care About Me?Urukhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-8886369088054392902009-08-26T18:59:26.433-05:002009-08-26T18:59:26.433-05:00Tandi,
I read the letter by “Justin S.” in that l...Tandi,<br /><br />I read the letter by “Justin S.” in that link you posted. I'm sorry to read that he went through such difficulties growing up and I think the conclusions he drew and the feelings of emptiness he developed were tragic.<br /><br />However, I do not accept his argument that his experience is the destiny of all non-believers. <br /><br />If God doesn't exist, then the world we live in today-- right now-- would be the result. Taking what Justin S. said in his letter and applying it to the world we live in today seems to be a mismatch. <br /><br />The assumption seems to be that morality and objective truth cannot be obtained without a deity. The purpose of a deity is to set standards according to many theists. So then, if I set my own standards, I become my own god.<br /><br />That idea again makes the assumption that God is a requirement in this universe.<br /><br />But if God does not exist, his person would not be a requirement and the world we live in would have somehow developed standards of right and wrong and morality by other means. <br /><br />As an atheist concludes that God doesn't truly exist, he or she can see the world in different terms. <br /><br />I think Justin S. is imposing what he experience upon all other atheists. This would be no different from me imposing my experiences as a former Christian upon other believers. I has very afraid that I had committed blasphemy at one time. I resolved this as a Christian-- long before becoming an atheist. But, I don't assert that because of my fears of blasphemy, Christians are all destined to become miserable people because they are taught to fear God's punitive nature.Urukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-60184200652338089562009-08-22T15:41:00.994-05:002009-08-22T15:41:00.994-05:00"I don't agree with people who say that a..."I don't agree with people who say that atheism is a religion. A religion (to me) requires a deity. There is no deity in atheism..."<br /><br />I don't see how you get around considering yourself your own deity....the ultimate arbiter of good and evil, right and wrong.<br /><br />Consider these testimonies, Uruk, from those who grew up Godless.....<br /><br /> http://creation.com/suicidal-atheist-converts-to-christTandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-66821306402778700362009-08-22T00:42:21.177-05:002009-08-22T00:42:21.177-05:00Harvey:
I wanted to respond to you, but I haven&#...<b>Harvey:</b><br /><br />I wanted to respond to you, but I haven't had time until now:<br /><br /><b>"Part of your present problem seems to derive from the fact that you are conditioned to think of non-belief in God as a pseudo-religion in its own right."</b><br /><br />I sometimes make parallels between my non-belief and former belief. But, I don't <i>think</i> I see atheism as a pseudo-religion. I made a blog post where I referred to my meet-up group as a place of "communion". I was really playing on that idea of having a social activity that replaces my former church attendance. But, I wasn't trying to suggest that the meet-up group which I attend is a religious group in it's own right. I don't agree with people who say that atheism is a religion. A religion (to me) requires a deity. There is no deity in atheism (as you hinted). I also have a blog post about that subject, too.<br /><br />You mentioned that support groups are really more like AA meetings. Funny you say that. On the way to my first atheist meet-up, I imagined myself sitting in a circle introducing myself-- Hi, I'm Uruk . . . and I'm an atheist.<br /><br />And they'd all reply in unison, "Hi, Uruk".<br /><br />But, the analogy breaks down (as many analogies do) when you consider that AA meetings support people who have a maladaptive issue they need to work out unlike an atheist meet-up. We meet for comradery, venting, and drinking beer.<br /><br /><b>"As long as you value your family's viewpoint, along with all of the narrow-minded (and possibly unconstitutional) pressures brought upon you because of the bigotry of your associates where you live, it will never be possible for you to completely honest with yourself and accept your disbelief."</b><br /><br />Currently, I think I accept my disbelief. But maybe you have a point, Harvey. I know that I will face repercussions for announcing my disbelief. Christianity and church attendance is assumed. If people find out upon meeting you that you are atheist, things seem easier. People sort of accept that. They may still try to convert you, but they know where you stand. But to change from a Christian to an atheist means you've left "the truth". You've done something wrong. You've lost something and Christians will then want to launch some sort of intervention. Too much drama at this point in my life. On top of that, I'm quite non-confrontational. <br /><br />As for my mom. I don't worry about her threatening <i>me</i> with eternal damnation (or anyone else for that matter). I worry about her <i>worrying</i> about me. I think that her worrying about me will do her in. She's already in poor health and our family as a whole is under a lot of stress right now (other siblings and their troubles). I think announcing my atheism to my mom (my wife and brother know) would only serve to ensure that my last days with her would end on bitter terms.<br /><br /><b>"Trying to 'show people' that being a decent and productive human being is quite possible absent religious dictates and the threat of eternal damnation, seems to me to be a poor reason to put yourself through all of this."</b><br /><br />I had mentioned wanting to show others that atheists could be decent people. I only meant that in the context that many think of atheists as people with horns on our heads and pitch forks in our hands. I wanted to be an example that helped deconstruct that stereotype of atheists being evil people. It seems that is a complaint among many in the atheist community.<br /><br />All in all, I appreciate your thoughts, Harvey. I will think on what you have said.Urukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-1521598721564878502009-08-17T07:21:14.066-05:002009-08-17T07:21:14.066-05:00Don't forget the Scripture about offending the...Don't forget the Scripture about offending the little ones that believe......(Matt. 18)Tandihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677227443380385291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-82801929023682110012009-08-16T22:14:39.638-05:002009-08-16T22:14:39.638-05:00Uruk, I live in that same Bible-Belt.
I hide it f...Uruk, I live in that same Bible-Belt.<br /><br />I hide it from no one. My son, when he was younger, would tell anyone that would listen. THAT was always fun at PTA night ;-) <br /><br />You just might feel better telling the truth. BUT, if you feel it might adversely affect your family to go public, I understand that too :-)machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04073782907747032366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-84891752024306424272009-08-16T14:44:52.238-05:002009-08-16T14:44:52.238-05:00"I don't feel like I'm suffering. But..."I don't feel like I'm suffering. But, I do wish I had the courage to come out. I want to be another person that people can see and say to themselves that atheists aren't bad people by default."<br /><br />Part of your present problem seems to derive from the fact that you are conditioned to think of non-belief in God as a pseudo-religion in its own right. The hardest thing for some folks to realize, having come from a background in organized religion, is the atheism is not just another belief system. It is more correctly the absence of belief. Atheism has no Pope, no real Gurus (some of the authors you have been hiding from your family notwithstanding), no doctrine and no scripture. We do not tithe, "convert", nor ostracize, for that matter. Certainly, the support gtoups you have joined may seem like a Church or Bible study group, but, in fact, they are much closer to AA meetings. As long as you vakue your family's viewpoint, along with all of the narrow-minded (and possibly unconstitutional) pressures brought upon you because of the bigotry of your associates where you live, it will never be possible for you to completely honest with yourself and accept your disbelief. Trying to "show people" that being a decent and productive human being is quite possible absent religious dictates and the threat of eternal damnation, seems to me to be a poor reason to put yourself through all of this.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-78351030859228070122009-08-15T17:46:53.806-05:002009-08-15T17:46:53.806-05:00Larro: Nice of you to drop in.
How neat-- mother...Larro: Nice of you to drop in.<br /><br />How neat-- mother and son blogging! That's so neat to me! I can't imagine my mom even getting on a computer, let alone keep up with a blog. That's cool!<br /><br />I do dislike the notion that atheists are portrayed as being mean-spirited and damaging to our society. I just made a new post that points out some interesting trends that challenge what many religious think about atheists.<br /><br />I find myself hiding all my books that challenge faith. Now and then my mother and mother-in-law visit. If they found some of my books that I have, I'd be in some trouble with them. Funny that some people hide other things. I'm hiding books like <i>The God Delusion</i> or <i>The Bible Unearthed</i>. I have to hide a lot of magazines, too (not <i>those</i> kind). I hide things like <i>Scientific American</i> and <i>National Geographic</i>. As if I'm living in a totalitarian state or something.<br /><br />Well, it's not that bad. But I have to keep those things out of sight. Much of the reason for doing this blog is because I started out writing a journal. But, I worried it would be found laying around one day. So, I put it here on Blogger. My mom will never look here! (see why I think it's cool for mom and son to blog together?)<br /><br />Harvey: <br /><br />As for coming out, I really want to. And Larro touched on this, too. The Bible Belt is different. Southern culture tends to expect more closeness between family members and neighbors. People just get in your business sometimes and the general consensus is that this is normal. People first meet you, the top ten questions you might get asked is: so, what church do you attend.<br /><br />When I moved out of the capital into a neighboring, smaller city, I got a big welcoming. Someone from the chamber of commerce came to my house and personally welcomed me to the neighborhood. They gave me a thick packet of materials loaded down with information about nearby restaurants, stores, and churches. A day or two later, someone from the church down the street came to my house and personally invited me to church. How did they even know I was new to the neighborhood?!?! You can't see my house from the church! I felt sort of like Big Brother was watching me or something.<br /><br />People will remain in this state because they don't want to leave family. I've seen people move away, seemingly start a better life, and come back "home" because they simply miss family. Southern culture is thick with that sort of thinking.<br /><br />So, it's very hard to just come out.<br /><br />Also, there is work. I really, really need my job. I don't get paid as much as I'd like as it is. I have a family and a new home. Coming out cause me to risk my job. I have heard of people at my job who posted you tube videos voicing their negative views of religion. Now, they don't work there any longer. And employees who were good friends with that person constantly get passed over for job advancements. In my local atheist group, we have several in the closet who are doctors, college professors, and programmers. They keep quiet because they don't want to lose their livelihood.<br /><br />But, I see the flip side, too. What strength is there in a friendship that only holds together by religion alone? But, again, disclosing this to someone may cause others to know. Often the friends you have are fellow or former employees.<br /><br />I don't <i>feel</i> like I'm suffering. But, I do wish I had the courage to come out. I want to be another person that people can see and say to themselves that atheists aren't bad people by default. <br /><br />I read somewhere that bus ads which say things like "Don't believe in god? You're not alone." has caused membership to go up in atheist groups. I think that coming out of the closet gives other people courage and keeps them from feeling so isolated. If people can ever feel comfortable about disclosing some dark secret, perhaps then it can be dealt with in a healthy way.Urukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-66574221518533936382009-08-14T10:33:05.165-05:002009-08-14T10:33:05.165-05:00Although I clearly appreciate your angst at the pr...Although I clearly appreciate your angst at the prospect of "coming out", I have to say that your main concern here should be you, rather than what anyone else may think. With the possible exceptions of your wife and/or children, whose mental and emotional well-being is more important, yours or the other menbers of your religious group? If we are intellectually honest, organized religion is supposed to have positive effects upon our lives on this earth (as well as in some anticipated after life). If your associations with friends and family hang on as thin a thread as your religious preference (or lack thereof), those realtionshipds cannot be of much value to either party. Of course, one must try to take parents' and siblings' feelings into account, but according to your brief biography, I think you have already suffered enough.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-43101094529514533942009-08-13T20:53:36.607-05:002009-08-13T20:53:36.607-05:00I suppose I should chime in here. I was raised non...I suppose I should chime in here. I was raised non religious as well (thanks to my mom (tina FCD)).<br /><br />Uruk, I don't envy your geographical position in the least. Living here in Michigan (a relatively liberal State outside of the Bible Belt) is not apparently so difficult to be out of the closet. Personally, I've come out to Christians here on a number of occasions with no hard feelings incurred. Although a very nice lady asked what I was reading after noticing some books on the floor of my work van (I drive senior citizens around the county); she took a closer look and noticed it was "Atheism: A Reader" and asked if I was an atheist. I answered "Yes" and promptly got: "But you're such a nice person!"<br /><br />She's still cool about it/me being atheist but I continually think about her response. Atheists are portrayed as being mean-spirited and/or malevolent in our culture and inherently without morals. This type of stereotype has to end...period. The more that "nice" people come out of the atheist closet the better that this stereotype can be broken.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05071513103184169276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-63927886544647588852009-08-13T20:32:11.225-05:002009-08-13T20:32:11.225-05:00"I wonder if I will feel much better or not a..."I wonder if I will feel much better or not after coming out. I don't know if I'd feel better should my mom respond like she did years ago. And I know she's getting closer to the end of her life. I'd really hate for her to pass away with us on bad terms."<br /><br />I would probably tell my mom, well just pray for me if that is what you need to do. Not that I believe in the power of prayer at all, but as a comfort to her, maybe.<br /><br />Funny, my son Larro at Ungodly Cynic was an atheist before me. <br />I was kind of freaked out to admit I really was an atheist, I can only imagine what it is like for a former christian or whatever to come out.tina FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10037896362034609151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-52626807838595267062009-08-12T11:31:41.621-05:002009-08-12T11:31:41.621-05:00Harvey, Mac:
Thanks for the insights. I appreciat...Harvey, Mac:<br /><br />Thanks for the insights. I appreciate it very much. I will take it all to heart. <br /><br />Tina, you're not excluded in the sentiment. I will at least have to come out to my kids one of these days. Probably sooner than I thought.<br /><br />I especailly appreciate that extra tidbit about how people will see your children. I had not considered that for my kids. But as an adult, it happens all the time. People assume we are Christians in my area. I can see the parallels of being part of a Jewish community or being close with Jewish family and having them assume and impose Judaism on your children beyond just the ethnic attributes.<br /><br />My kids will need to be aware of this, too and should be made equipped to answer this in their own way.<br /><br />Thanks, everybody.Urukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-65521138868113418342009-08-12T09:13:50.987-05:002009-08-12T09:13:50.987-05:00You may be interested in the issues I and my wife ...You may be interested in the issues I and my wife faced with our kids. We were both Jewish, born and raised. I had spent my first 18 years in the study of Hebrew, Judaism, and had even attended a teacher's college to be qualified to teach Hebrew school. When I left home for college, I realized that I did not actually have the core belief in any God (let alone the one in the OT) one needs to reconcile any organized religion with the realities of life.<br />When our first child (a daughter) reached the age of 4, we began to wrestle with the issue of what to tell her about God. I wanted to let her grow up without any specific religious background or training until she reached an age when she could "decide for herself" which, if any religion suited her. My wife (quite wisely in retrospect) pointed out that she would be seen as a Jew by others whether she chose to be one or not, and that we owed her at least some kind of background in that religion so she would be able to cope with the actions and/or opinions of others as she grew up. And... we did so. <br />I remember vividly my angst when she finally asked me the "big question"! "Daddy, what do you believe?" I am pleased to say that I found a way to tell her the truth, that I had not found the kernel of faith one needs to believe in any God, but that I had studied our religion and had great respect for the ethical lessons it had taught me regarding how to try to conduct myself in this life (even if I didn't believe that there was a "next" one.) She has grown up without any obvious hangups and has told me that she recalls my honesty regarding religious matters as very important to her own ethical growth and development. In my case, family opinions were not all that critical (as yours seem to be), but the larger "family" of everyone else in the US my kids have come into contact with turned out to be just as important.Harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10797750710657979526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-9725880200447204172009-08-11T08:47:10.768-05:002009-08-11T08:47:10.768-05:00Hey Uruk, how we tell our kids is VERY important.
...Hey Uruk, how we tell our kids is VERY important.<br /><br />I've felt, for a long time, that religion was established as a control device. My son knew, from a very early age, that I had no belief in a god. His Mother, however, does. She's a Christian.<br /><br />The boy decided, on his own, to go to church for a while. I was OK with it, but I wanted him to know my views. I didn't try to make him see it my way, just that he had options there. And I try to be as honest with him as I can be.(he didn't need to know what I was doing with his Mama when the door shut ;-) <br />The boy decided, after a while, he didn't care for church too much. I was there for him then too.<br /><br /><br />I remember growing up as a child thinking something must be wrong with me. I couldn't see what the others saw. I couldn't "feel" that spirit. Was I blind, what was wrong ? Nothing !<br />I didn't want my son to ever feel that way, so I offered my support and understanding of whatever path he decided to follow for himself. But, I would not, could not, tell him I believed in a god I know does not exist.<br /><br />He's 15 now. We chuckle about it all from time to time now. Yeah, he's come 'round to my way of thinking :-)machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04073782907747032366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-75672603462374977522009-08-10T23:24:25.368-05:002009-08-10T23:24:25.368-05:00Well Tina, thanks for stopping by. I'll be sur...Well Tina, thanks for stopping by. I'll be sure to return the favor and check out your blog spot as well as Larro's.<br /><br />I am tempted more and more to just come out to everyone. But, my mom and I are very close. And, she takes religion very seriously. I simply changed to a different denomination years ago and she stopped talking to me for a few years. That really hurt. I don't think she'd handle it if I told her I have become an atheist.<br /><br />Also, I'm in the Bible Belt. Perhaps the buckle. Most of your superiors at work assume that you go to church. So, there is some pressure to blend in. Also, I grew up fundamentalist. So, people still see me as a Christian, although they can probably tell that I've become "weak". <br /><br />I want to be open about my non-belief. I admire people who don't have the same worries that I do-- meaning that they have the bravery to just be open whereas I'm trying to grow to that point in my life.<br /><br />I wonder if I will feel much better or not after coming out. I don't know if I'd feel better should my mom respond like she did years ago. And I know she's getting closer to the end of her life. I'd really hate for her to pass away with us on bad terms.<br /><br />I've started meeting with a local atheist group in my city. So, that helps a whole lot. I don't feel so bottled up as I first did. And I have a few agnostic, skeptical friends and relatives who sort of sat around wondering if I would ever come around. They have been supportive. <br /><br />I see the seeds of skepticism growing within my son. So, I'm not to worried about him for now. I plan to open up to him one day. <br /><br />I need to get a game plan for my daughter. She believes wholeheartedly in Leprechauns at the moment. But then, she's only four years old.<br /><br />Then again, that kind of credulity is where it all begins, eh?<br /><br />I did come out to my wife. That was very hard to do. I didn't know what her reaction would be. I figured that if we were to grow together, she needed to know. She was very shocked and seemed like she didn't approve. But, it turned out that she was extremely tired of Christianity. She is still a theist, but she believes in god the way she wants. She doesn't go to church and she respects my atheism. She may even join my point of view on day. She sometimes seems very close to making the same conclusions that I have.<br /><br />And I sometimes see the harm in keeping to my self. I come out to people selectively. I have a friend overseas who I came out to. We attended a Christian college together. Turns out, she was leaning towards atheism even back then (about 10 years ago, I guess? Gosh, time flies). Now she certainly is an atheist. I think that learning that about each other had a very good impact on our friendship. We are far more open with each other now. Openness doesn't happen enough in the lives of so many people.<br /><br />I could very well be keeping others in the closet by staying in the closet myself. I'm trying to conjure the bravery to come out for the sake of anyone else who needs an example.<br /><br />Well, thanks again for stopping by. If you can, hang around.<br /><br />Oh, and you didn't come off as being rude at all. I understand that many people have no trouble with being themselves. That's a good quality that I envy.<br /><br />Maybe I need therapy? <br /><br />:-DUrukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05913837011380611461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3547195737073832993.post-41724995066984361732009-08-10T21:15:13.862-05:002009-08-10T21:15:13.862-05:00The way I see it.....well, I don't want to com...The way I see it.....well, I don't want to come off as being rude, but I really don't care what my family thinks, but I was raised in a non religious family. They "found" Jesus later in life, my sisters and mom mostly, I don't usually speak to my five brothers.<br />An atheist on the atheist blogroll gave me very good advice, "stop trying to please your mom or worry about what they think". So I did and I feel much better. :)<br />Larro, over at Ungodly Cynic sent me your way. :)tina FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10037896362034609151noreply@blogger.com